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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2167
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Posted - 2014.11.14 17:12:02 -
[1] - Quote
this will probably be my only contribution to this topic, so i will try to sum up my thoughts on this as concisely as possible.
1. usefulness: given that the hull cost will probably be in the billions and the complementary skill will be a long train, there has to be a damn good use case or else this hull will not be used a lot. i myself have quite a few rigged hulls lying around across hisec and i'm still not sure if i want to go through the trouble of getting one of those. this leads me to believe that indeed, only incursion runners will make regular use of the hull.
2. ganking: given the above, there is a very good reason to make this hull virtually ungankable. as we all know, miniluv and CODE are not the only groups killing freighters for sport (and good for them), so the question of dropping ship hulls from the maintainance bay (array?) is less important than the question of exposing expensive assets.
2.1 unfitting shiny mods: this is not a viable solution, not because it makes players choose between tedium and danger (as this balance is present in many parts of EVE), but because it requires a second trip or a second char. if you need to fly twice or have two toons anyway, you might as well fly your ships manually and enjoy faster align times and faster warp speeds.
3. conclusion: if CCP wants to give the hull a solid role, they have to cater to incursion runners, which means raising the EHP to almost 7 digit levels at least. that said, i have no problem accepting another eccentric and underused hull into the EVE universe to counteract the gleichschaltung that is taking place in other areas.
I should buy an Ishtar.
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Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2167
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Posted - 2014.11.14 17:20:14 -
[2] - Quote
Querns wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:
2. ganking: given the above, there is a very good reason to make this hull virtually ungankable.
I disagree.
it's always cool to disagree without stating your reasons. it makes you seem edgy and cool.
I should buy an Ishtar.
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Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2167
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Posted - 2014.11.14 17:24:59 -
[3] - Quote
Querns wrote:The disconnect here is that the calls for seven digit EHP and other forms of invincibility assume a position where attempting to evade or out-think the gankers in question is never broached. In a pure PvP game such as Eve: Online, you must keep death in mind at all times. There is no safety. You are prey at all times until you choose to become a predator, and even then you're only not prey if you are at the top of your game.
so we are back to tedium vs. risk. in that case, the best solution would be to not waste time and effort on avoiding ganks and move your hulls the old way, which defeats the purpose of the new ship. and to restate it, i have no horse in this race, i'm just predicting what will likely happen.
I should buy an Ishtar.
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Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2167
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Posted - 2014.11.14 17:30:33 -
[4] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Querns wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:
2. ganking: given the above, there is a very good reason to make this hull virtually ungankable.
I disagree. it's always cool to disagree without stating your reasons. it makes you seem edgy and cool. No cargo ship should ever be virtually ungankable right out of the box. If you want that level of security then you must put in the effort to do it yourself.
if that is true, then this ship will not find any use to speak of, at least not in hisec.
I should buy an Ishtar.
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Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2167
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Posted - 2014.11.14 17:35:52 -
[5] - Quote
Querns wrote:There are plenty of uses for the ship outside of the "I need to be able to haul extremely expensive battleships" niche in highsec. The ability to haul fitted ships is just more versatile than this. Trying to pretend that the extreme edge case being less viable when a perfect storm of circumstance arises somehow makes the ship worthless is a pretty terrible position from which to argue.
i am eager to hear of use cases where you would need to haul rigged hulls in hisec so badly that you invest ten digits and a month of training time into it.
I should buy an Ishtar.
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Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2167
|
Posted - 2014.11.14 17:37:25 -
[6] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:It can sport a 700k ehp tank and when escorted by several logis is virtually ungankable. The very fact that people fly freighters with cargo expanders shows that they will fly this ship.
it is also completely useless to disprove my point because it assumes access to several chars (who may as well fly the ships you are hauling).
I should buy an Ishtar.
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Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2167
|
Posted - 2014.11.14 17:42:29 -
[7] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:baltec1 wrote:It can sport a 700k ehp tank and when escorted by several logis is virtually ungankable. The very fact that people fly freighters with cargo expanders shows that they will fly this ship. it is also completely useless to disprove my point because it assumes access to several chars (who may as well fly the ships you are hauling). Welcome to EVE. In order to gank these things at all we need entire fleets of people working together. Why is it so bad for the industrial pilots to work together for the best results too?
please stop strawmanning me. if the proposed ship will be as gankable as it is outlined in the op, the ~best results~ will be achieved by not using it.
I should buy an Ishtar.
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Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2167
|
Posted - 2014.11.14 17:43:25 -
[8] - Quote
Yume Ookami wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Querns wrote:There are plenty of uses for the ship outside of the "I need to be able to haul extremely expensive battleships" niche in highsec. The ability to haul fitted ships is just more versatile than this. Trying to pretend that the extreme edge case being less viable when a perfect storm of circumstance arises somehow makes the ship worthless is a pretty terrible position from which to argue. i am eager to hear of use cases where you would need to haul rigged hulls in hisec so badly that you invest ten digits and a month of training time into it. again a starting character should be able to train for the bowhead in maybe a day if you have to train 2 skills to level 3. now i never claimed that the support skills would be there, but a day of training max is hardly a month.
advanced spaceship command V.
I should buy an Ishtar.
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Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2167
|
Posted - 2014.11.14 17:53:10 -
[9] - Quote
Querns wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Querns wrote:There are plenty of uses for the ship outside of the "I need to be able to haul extremely expensive battleships" niche in highsec. The ability to haul fitted ships is just more versatile than this. Trying to pretend that the extreme edge case being less viable when a perfect storm of circumstance arises somehow makes the ship worthless is a pretty terrible position from which to argue. i am eager to hear of use cases where you would need to haul rigged hulls in hisec so badly that you invest ten digits and a month of training time into it. Investing a month of training time? The bulk of the training time for the Bowhead is Advanced Spaceship Command 5, a skill which has significant overlap with Freighters, Jump Freighters, and is a gateway to all capital ships. Pretending that it's some sort of burden shouldered only by the Bowhead aspirant is disingenuous. Also, 1b is hardly a large amount of money. PLEX are a doghair from this value right now. And if you use a little bit of brainpower to limit your exposure, you can safely move around the universe while fearing no gank bogey man. As for use cases, here's some:
- Mercenaries transporting large numbers of ships-of-the-line to stage towards a new target.
- A common way for corporations and alliances to provide ships for their members is to pre-fit them and put them up on contracts. The Bowhead allows them to move the ships easily should the staging point for the corporation/alliance change.
- Consolidation of personal assets.
With a little creativity, a lot of things come out of the woodwork.
none of the use cases require hauling rigged ships, in fact the first two decidedly favor hauling packaged hulls and assembling in place. as for consolidating items, like i said, i have quite a few hulls lying around myself, but when given the choice of training for, buying and flying the ship (and then selling it once i'm done), i would rather spend a few hours moving them manually and be done.
i will not comment on the cost issue, this is something every EVE player (with a median wallet of 2bil) can decide for himself.
I should buy an Ishtar.
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Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2167
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Posted - 2014.11.14 17:55:19 -
[10] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Querns wrote:There are plenty of uses for the ship outside of the "I need to be able to haul extremely expensive battleships" niche in highsec. The ability to haul fitted ships is just more versatile than this. Trying to pretend that the extreme edge case being less viable when a perfect storm of circumstance arises somehow makes the ship worthless is a pretty terrible position from which to argue. i am eager to hear of use cases where you would need to haul rigged hulls in hisec so badly that you invest ten digits and a month of training time into it. Transporting three battleships, two logi boats, a command ship, a hauler with ammo and a scout frigate for incursion running is a little over twice as fast using a bowhead than manually transporting them. (ship list taken from a poster earlier in the thread that stated that incursion runners own these ships. Time was calculated over having to move 30 jumps of an average of 50au)
two times longer (assuming you have one char) and infinitely more safe.
I should buy an Ishtar.
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Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2167
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Posted - 2014.11.14 18:00:48 -
[11] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:
two times longer (assuming you have one char) and infinitely more safe.
If people fit several billion to their ships like they say then no, they are at more risk because the battleship they are flying is much easier to gank than a bowhead.
it is easier to gank once you know which one of the 200 machs passing through is the shiny one. as for the 'accessory' ships, their chance of being ganked is essentially 0 unless they are buried in a giant cargo-coffin with a 'kick me' sign on the rear.
I should buy an Ishtar.
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Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2167
|
Posted - 2014.11.14 18:10:53 -
[12] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:baltec1 wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:
two times longer (assuming you have one char) and infinitely more safe.
If people fit several billion to their ships like they say then no, they are at more risk because the battleship they are flying is much easier to gank than a bowhead. it is easier to gank once you know which one of the 200 machs passing through is the shiny one. as for the 'accessory' ships, their chance of being ganked is essentially 0 unless they are buried in a giant cargo-coffin with a 'kick me' sign on the rear. There arn;t 200 mack running through a system at any one point. Each and every pirate battleship will be scanned and if gank worthy, blown up in the next system. You are lying to yourself if you think its safer.
i prefer to always be honest, with myself at least. as for being ganked, you should ask people who actually run incursions. so far, they seem to be quite fine despite the permanent scanning (and so are my mission alts).
I should buy an Ishtar.
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